Noshing With Joseph McBride – December 21, 2023

Ira's Everything Bagel

Author (along with Michael Wilmington), John Ford

In this week’s episode of Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast, host Ira Sternberg sits down with Joseph McBride, a distinguished film historian, professor, and author, to discuss the newly revised and expanded edition of his book John Ford, co-authored with Michael Wilmington and published by University Press of Kentucky. This cinematic episode offers a deep dive into the life, craft, and enduring influence of one of America’s most celebrated directors, John Ford. Known for his ability to capture the essence of American culture and landscape on film, Ford is often regarded as the closest thing America has to a national poet. McBride, with his extensive knowledge and passion for film history, unpacks why Ford’s work continues to matter, both in subject matter and visual importance.

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John Ford: America’s National Poet

Joseph McBride begins by exploring why he believes John Ford is the closest thing America has to a national poet. Ford’s films, such as The Grapes of Wrath, The Searchers, and Stagecoach, are not just cinematic masterpieces but also cultural artifacts that offer a window into the American experience. McBride explains that Ford had an innate ability to understand “what the earth is made of,” capturing the rugged beauty and harsh realities of the American landscape and its people. His work goes beyond mere storytelling; it embodies the spirit of America, making him a poet in the truest sense, albeit through the medium of film.

The Early Years: From Theater to Silent Films

McBride delves into John Ford’s early years, tracing his development as a filmmaker from his beginnings in theater as a child to his transition into directing silent films. Ford’s early exposure to the stage provided him with a strong foundation in narrative structure and visual composition. As McBride points out, Ford’s theatrical roots are evident in his films, particularly in his use of the “proscenium arch,” a technique where the action unfolds within a clearly defined frame, much like a stage play. This method allowed Ford to create visually striking scenes without the need for excessive camera movement, focusing instead on the dynamic interaction of characters within a static frame.

The Art of Framing: Ford’s Cinematic Vision

One of John Ford’s most remarkable talents, as discussed by Joseph McBride, was his mastery of framing. Ford had a unique ability to compose shots that were both visually stunning and narratively significant. McBride explains that Ford rarely moved the camera; instead, he meticulously planned his shots so that the action took place within the frame, allowing the audience to focus on the characters and their interactions. This approach is evident in films like The Searchers, where the iconic final shot of John Wayne’s character framed in a doorway has become one of the most memorable images in cinema history.

A Memorable Meeting with John Ford

In a particularly poignant moment of the podcast, Joseph McBride recounts his one-hour meeting with John Ford, which happened to take place on the very day that Ford announced his retirement. McBride describes the meeting as a pivotal moment in his career, providing him with invaluable insights into Ford’s character and his approach to filmmaking. Despite Ford’s gruff exterior, McBride found him to be a deeply reflective and thoughtful individual, qualities that are evident in the depth and complexity of his films.

The Visual and Thematic Importance of Ford’s Films

Throughout the episode, Joseph McBride emphasizes the visual and thematic importance of John Ford’s films. Ford’s work is not only significant for its storytelling but also for its innovative use of visual language. His films often tackle complex themes such as identity, morality, and the American dream, all while employing a visual style that is both bold and understated. McBride argues that Ford’s ability to convey deep meaning through simple, yet powerful images is what makes his films timeless.

The Revised and Expanded Edition of John Ford

The conversation also touches on the newly revised and expanded edition of John Ford, co-authored by Joseph McBride and Michael Wilmington. McBride explains that this edition offers new insights and perspectives on Ford’s work, drawing on recent scholarship and previously unpublished material. The book delves into Ford’s entire career, providing a comprehensive analysis of his films and their impact on both American cinema and global culture. McBride discusses the process of revising the book, including the challenges of updating and expanding on a subject as vast and influential as John Ford.

McBride’s Other Works: A Prolific Career in Film History

In addition to his work on John Ford, Joseph McBride is a prolific author with a long list of critically acclaimed books to his name. These include biographies of Frank Capra and Steven Spielberg, as well as the critical study How Did Lubitsch Do It?. McBride’s writing spans a wide range of topics within film history, from the Coen Brothers to Orson Welles. His recent works, such as The Whole Durn Human Comedy: Life According to the Coen Brothers and Billy Wilder: Dancing on the Edge, demonstrate his continued relevance and expertise in the field. McBride’s ability to blend rigorous scholarship with accessible prose has made him a leading voice in film criticism and history.

Teaching the Next Generation: McBride as an Educator

Aside from his writing, Joseph McBride is also a respected professor in the School of Cinema at San Francisco State University. He discusses how his teaching informs his writing and vice versa. McBride is passionate about educating the next generation of filmmakers and scholars, emphasizing the importance of understanding film history to appreciate contemporary cinema. His students benefit from his vast knowledge and firsthand experience in the industry, making his classes a unique and enriching experience.

The Influence of John Ford on Modern Filmmakers

As the episode progresses, Joseph McBride reflects on the lasting influence of John Ford on modern filmmakers. Directors such as Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and Clint Eastwood have all cited Ford as a significant influence on their work. McBride explores how Ford’s techniques, particularly his use of framing and visual storytelling, continue to inspire and inform the work of contemporary filmmakers. He argues that understanding Ford’s contributions to cinema is essential for anyone looking to understand the evolution of film as an art form.

Joseph McBride Podcast Episode Conclusion

This episode of Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast is a must-listen for film enthusiasts and scholars alike. Joseph McBride’s deep knowledge of John Ford and his contributions to American cinema provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of why Ford remains a towering figure in film history. Whether you’re a longtime fan of Ford’s work or new to his films, this episode offers valuable insights into the director’s life, craft, and legacy.

For more thought-provoking discussions and expert insights, be sure to subscribe to Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast. Stay connected with Joseph McBride and explore his extensive body of work through the links provided below.

🔗 Useful Links:

• Joseph McBride’s Previous Episode on Ira’s Everything Bagel

FAQs About Joseph Mcbride

Who is Joseph McBride?

Joseph McBride is an American film historian, biographer, screenwriter, and professor at San Francisco State University. He has written extensively on renowned filmmakers, including Orson Welles, John Ford, and Steven Spielberg, and has contributed significantly to film history and criticism.

What is Joseph McBride known for?

Joseph McBride is best known for his in-depth biographies of prominent filmmakers, particularly his works on Orson Welles, John Ford, and Steven Spielberg. He is also recognized for his role as a film critic and historian, with contributions to both academic and popular discussions on cinema.

What books has Joseph McBride written?

Joseph McBride has written more than 20 books, including “Searching for John Ford,” “Frank Capra: The Catastrophe of Success,” and “Whatever Happened to Orson Welles?” His works are highly regarded in film studies and have been translated into multiple languages.

Is Joseph McBride married?

Joseph McBride is currently in a long-term relationship with Ann Weiser Cornell, who is an author and psychology educator. Previously, he was married to Linda Mary Detra and later to Ruth Mary O’Hara.

How old is Joseph McBride?

Joseph McBride was born on August 9, 1947, making him 77 years old as of 2024.

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Read The Full Transcript

Joseph McBrde Podcast Epsiode Full Transcript
Ira Sternberg: Welcome to Ira’s Everything Bagel, where I talk with intriguing people about everything—their passions, pursuits, and points of view. And when you think of legendary film directors, depending on the decade or genre, one name that always makes the list is John Ford. Ford directed such films as Stagecoach, Young Mr. Lincoln, How Green Was My Valley, My Darling Clementine, Rio Grande, The Quiet Man, Mister Roberts, and The Searchers. I couldn’t name all of them because we wouldn’t have time for my guest. He’s Joe McBride, Joseph McBride, author along with Michael Wilmington of John Ford: The Expanded and Revised Edition, published by the University Press of Kentucky. It’s available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all the usual places. Joe, welcome back to the show.
Joseph McBride: Great to be with you again, Ira.
Ira: Yeah, the last time you were on was May 12, 2022, talking about Whatever Happened to Orson Welles?, one of your many books. We should point out you’re the author of 24 books, including the biography Searching for John Ford and biographies of Capra and Spielberg, three on Welles, and critical studies of Ernst Lubitsch and Billy Wilder. You’re a former film and television writer, as well as a reporter, reviewer, and columnist for Daily Variety in Hollywood. I wanted to establish all that for your credentials, which everybody knows anyway. And you’re also a professor in the School of Cinema at San Francisco State University, right? So, with that predicate laid down…
Joseph: Well, I want to point out that you have the same terrible microphone setup that you had last time. It sounds like you’re talking through a tin can.
Ira: You reminded me—I’m sorry. I’ve got a mic—that’s better—and you’ve galvanized me into trying to set it up for the next time.
Joseph: Yes, it sounds like one of those talkies from the 1920s, like a tin can with wires.
Ira: Exactly, exactly. So, Orson Welles was once asked which directors he most admired, and he replied, “The Old Masters—by which I mean John Ford, John Ford, and John Ford.” Who was John Ford?
Joseph: Well, I’d say he was the closest thing we have to an American national poet, aside from the great Walt Whitman. I think he’s the greatest literary poet of American values. John Ford was the son of Irish immigrants in Portland, Maine. He was a football player in high school, called “Bull Feeney”—his real name was John Feeney, which he never changed legally. His brother Francis had come to Hollywood and changed his name to Francis Ford, so John took that name. He came to Hollywood in 1914. Francis was starring in and directing serials and short films at Universal with his partner Grace Cunard. Universal had a lot of women directors at that time, and Lois Weber, one of the first great female directors, was working there. John Ford started out doing stunts for his brother; he was a big tough guy from football and became an actor. Later, he tried to deny he was an actor—he said, “Good God, with my face, I’m an actor?” In the background here, I have a picture I took of Ford when I interviewed him on the last day of his career in 1970. We can talk about that. He was a homely guy but a big rugged fellow. He actually starred in three short films that he directed, which are unfortunately lost. Then he began directing in 1917, when he was only 23 years old. He directed Harry Carey westerns—Great Western actor—they made 26 films together. He worked with other western actors and branched out into different genres in the ’20s, trying to figure out his artistic personality. By the time sound came in, he handled it very well, and it actually improved his work. Contrary to what he said—he liked to disparage dialogue—the dialogue in his films is lively, colorful, colloquial, and full of love for American natural language. He became a master director in the ’30s, and by the end of the decade, he made Stagecoach, one of the all-time classic westerns that set the mold for the genre in the sound era. He had an amazing period, directing The Grapes of Wrath, The Long Voyage Home, Young Mr. Lincoln, Drums Along the Mohawk—an Americana trilogy that year, in 1939. Then he went to war, spent four years working for the Navy in the OSS. He also had a side career as a Navy man, became a Rear Admiral, and photographed World War II, including D-Day and the Battle of Midway. He came back to Hollywood and continued making great films until he was forcibly retired by Hollywood in 1965. I encountered him five years later, when he was facing the fact that his career was over. It’s sad that this really great filmmaker with a long career was kind of declared persona non grata by Hollywood, even though he was still popular in Europe and Asia. His audience, as Andrew Sarris said, was no longer American; it was foreign—they cared more about our culture than we did, which is a longstanding tradition.
Ira: Now, this new and revised version includes a study of the 27 Ford silent films now known to survive in whole or in part, and also several essays. I wasn’t even aware that he did silent films, so the fact that you included that in the new edition is great because it made me aware that his history goes back even further than I assumed. I’m not a film scholar, but I wish I had known where he started. How did you find these 27 silent films?
Joseph: Well, it takes some sleuthing when you’re a film historian. You have to travel around the world, go to archives and festivals, and trade films back and forth. When Michael Wilmington and I did this book, we wrote it between 1969 and 1971, and there were only about 12 Ford silents known to exist, so we only wrote about Straight Shooting, which was his first feature and was fortunately rediscovered in the late ’60s. It’s a very mature film for a 23-year-old, a polished Harry Carey western. But there wasn’t enough to get a true sense of his overall career in silent films. He made 72 silent films, which is a heck of a lot—he wound up directing 135 films in total, so silent films were more than half of his career. His big film in the silent period was The Iron Horse, an epic western about the transcontinental railroad uniting the country. It’s a very impressive film, physically, though the story is kind of weak. It’s like a semi-documentary look into the past. One of the things we concluded in our book is that Ford’s films are documentary visions of an ideal world. There’s a paradox there—his framing is so beautiful; he’s a great pictorial artist. There’s a dreamlike perfection to his framing, yet within the frame, he liked to have rough, spontaneous action. He often shot the first take without rehearsals to capture that roughness within a controlled frame. His films have this dual sense—they feel lived-in and real, yet there’s also a sense of myth and dream. Orson Welles once said, “In a Ford film, you always know what the earth is made of.” There’s a physicality to his films. He recreates our past in an exciting way. He’s a poet with the camera, not just interested in narrative, but also in feelings, symbols, and lyrical moments—like the dance sequence in My Darling Clementine. That sequence didn’t have to be in the film, but it’s one of the highlights. It celebrates the embryonic civilization being built in the wilderness. Ford infuses our history with myth, and our history is so mythical, especially the West, that it’s hard to separate myth from reality. Ford grappled with that question, particularly in films like Fort Apache and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
Ira: You mentioned that he had this way of framing films, which calls to mind the cinematographers he worked with throughout his career. Did he get along with his cinematographers?
Joseph: He had some of the greatest cinematographers—George Schneiderman, who isn’t talked about much, shot a lot of his Fox films, and then Ford worked with the great Gregg Toland, one of the all-time masters. He worked with Winston C. Hoch, who shot his four most beautiful color films: The Searchers, The Quiet Man, 3 Godfathers, and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon. Ford was autocratic on set, but he had a great eye for the camera. He claimed, “I’m the greatest cinematographer in the history of films.” It sounds egotistical, but he wasn’t far off. He knew where the camera should go, and his framing was exquisite. He didn’t move the camera much; instead, he moved the actors in relation to the camera, creating this invisible proscenium arch. Ford’s background in theater influenced his work—he was an usher in a theater in Portland and saw all the great stage actors of the time. There’s a blend of theater and cinema in his work, documentary and fiction, all kinds of good things.
Ira: You mentioned meeting John Ford, and I don’t know if you met him more than once, but you did meet him on a very significant day. Tell us a little bit about that.
Joseph: Yes, I met Ford on the last day of his career in August 1970. It was my first time in Hollywood, and I was there to interview him for the book I was working on with Michael Wilmington. Ford was anxiously awaiting a call from Italy regarding a potential film project. As the interview progressed, he realized that call wasn’t coming, and during our conversation, he announced his retirement. He said, “I’m just a hard-nosed, hard-working ex-director, and I’m trying to retire gracefully.” It was a poignant moment, and I realized years later that he was coming to terms with the end of his career during our interview.
Ira: Wow, that must have been something to witness. Did you realize at the time the significance of what he was saying?
Joseph: Not fully. I knew it was significant, but it wasn’t until I did more research years later that I fully understood what was happening. I published the story in Sight & Sound at the time, and it was one of those moments where you realize the weight of what you’ve experienced only in hindsight.
Ira: Given the culture and the way Hollywood operates today, do you think a director like John Ford could exist now?
Joseph: It would be difficult. The studio system that supported directors like Ford no longer exists. Today’s Hollywood is vastly different, with fewer opportunities for directors to build long, sustained careers like Ford’s. He was a pragmatist and worked within the system, making films that were commercially viable while also managing to infuse them with his personal vision. The environment that allowed Ford to thrive has changed significantly.
Ira: Tell us a bit about your co-author, Michael Wilmington, who passed away in 2022.
Joseph: Michael was a brilliant actor and writer. We were schoolmates at the University of Wisconsin, and he was an excellent stage actor. We collaborated closely on the book, and he taught me a lot about acting and how to write about it. He later became a prominent film critic for the Chicago Tribune and the Los Angeles Times. He had a deep sensitivity to the complexities of John Ford’s work, and our discussions were very passionate, which made the book better.
Ira: It sounds like you had a very collaborative and intense working relationship.
Joseph: Yes, we did. Our debates and discussions were integral to the book’s depth and insight. It was a true collaboration, and I tried to keep that youthful energy in the new edition, even as I added new essays and updated the content.
Ira: That’s a great way to leave it. My guest has been Joseph McBride, author along with Michael Wilmington of John Ford: The Expanded and Revised Edition. It’s published by the University Press of Kentucky and available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all the usual places. Joe, thanks for being on the show again.
Joseph: Thank you, Ira. It’s always a pleasure.
Ira: Same here. Join us every Thursday for a new shmear on Ira’s Everything Bagel.

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