TCC Podcast #404: A Great Practice Resource with Wendy Ann Jones

The Copywriter Club Podcast

To get better at copywriting, you need to practice. But how do you get the right kind of practice (and perhaps a few portfolio samples in the process)? Copywriter Wendy Ann Jones joins us for the 404th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to share a new resource that helps you get the practice you need. We covered a lot more than that… you’re going to want to stick around for this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers
The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson
The Copywriter’s Workout by Wendy Jones
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: There’s one thing that all writers have in common… that is we write. We write for ourselves and our clients. It’s writing every day that helps us get better at the craft. But if you’re not working with a client, you might be wondering what do I write? How can you use your writing time to create writing samples that read as if they are real and help you get good writing practice?

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I talked with copywriter Wendy Ann Jones. Wendy quit a corporate job in order to start her own business, but when it came time to practice, she realized there weren’t a lot of resources out there to help. So she created that resource—a book of practice clients and projects you can use to get better at the craft of writing and perhaps even create a few portfolio samples worth sharing with potential clients. If you’re looking for ways to build your portfolio, you’ll want to listen to what Wendy has to share…

Before we jump in with Wendy…

We have a new gift for you as a listener to The Copywriter Club Podcast. We went through the past 400 episodes of this podcast looking for the ideas that our guests have shared over the past couple of years related to finding clients. We pulled out a bunch of our favorites and compiled them into a new pocket sized guide that will inspire you as you look for ways to attract the right clients to your business. It’s a bit like having a couple dozen of the best copywriters in your pocket advising you on how to find your next client. To get your copy, visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket and download this new guide.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Wendy Ann Jones.

Kira Hug: Hi, Wendy. Let’s just start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? OK.

Wendy Ann Jones: So about February 2021 I was really super disillusioned with my job. I was working in corporate and I loved it. I did love it and it was very fast moving, very motivating and then the company took a turn and it was a bit boring. It was a bit boring, a bit dull, and there wasn’t anything to learn. And I’m quite a lifelong learner. I’m always obsessed with learning things and like to be occupied and busy. And I was also going through the start of the perimenopause, which, you know, I’m sure a lot of women, women similar age to me will be like, yeah, nodding their heads. And I kind of thought, oh, I need to change, to do something different. I found a copywriting ad. It popped up on my Facebook, and it was like, oh, would you like to work the hours you want to work? And would you like to live wherever you want? And would you like to, you know, all these things? And I was like, yes, yes, that’s exactly what I want. Yes, please. Yes, yes. And I’ve said this a few times before, but it was just that hook was my introduction to copywriting, right? Because it was like they were talking. exactly to me at the time that I needed them and I went on to like a free webinar it’s like a five-day little mini training course and I loved it and then I signed on straight away obviously for a full-on copywriting course there and then and yeah just took part in that and obviously the key to that was find yourself a client and And you kind of do a big gulp at that point when they say, oh, you need to find a client pretty much straight away. And you’re like, oh, can I do that? But I was lucky. I had a couple of people I knew that were business owners who agreed to let me write some website copy for them. And that’s how I got started, really. And that was, yeah, that was back in 2021. Early 22, I went into my business full time, quit my corporate job, took a big deep breath. and jumped in and I’ve been doing that ever since.

Rob Marsh: So as you started to build your business, you know, those first clients that are people that you know, sometimes those are the easy ones. And in what I’ve seen with the copywriters that we’ve coached, even in my own experience, that first initial transfer of clients dries up pretty quickly. So how did you take the next step from the business owners that you know, and move into other clients that maybe were outside of that immediate circle.

Wendy Ann Jones: Okay. So the first thing I did was a complete leap of faith. I went on to LinkedIn, which I’d got about 10 followers from my corporate job. and kind of redid my profile. I don’t even want to look at what that looks like now when I go back, but made it look like something. And I saw someone advertising for an actual full-time copywriter. And I thought, well, I don’t want that. I’ve just come out of a full-time job. But I dropped them a message and said, do you work with freelancers at all? And they said, yeah. And I went, oh. And then he sent me a document like, oh, can you write this test document thing? And it was writing articles, actually, so it wasn’t pure copy. It was more article writing. But they said, can you write this? And it was a mock-up. They were never going to use it. And then he came back and said, yeah, great. And they ended up being my first client. I worked for them for three years, pretty much every week for three years. So that was my first jump in.

Then I thought, oh, this LinkedIn thing might not be too bad. And that’s when I started kind of trying to post on LinkedIn and engage with people a little bit. And that in truth, that’s probably where most of my clients came from, was that. So yeah, it’s harder now on LinkedIn because there’s more and more people at that time, two years ago. It wasn’t so competitive in the copywriting arena. There weren’t so many people using it. I see a lot of people now jumping onto LinkedIn that I knew as copywriters before, but they were using different platforms and they’re all coming across now. So it’s very, very competitive now. So it is about finding new strategies and just keep reinventing yourself really, isn’t it? Keep looking out and seeing what else you can do.

Kira Hug: Yeah, it is amazing how quickly it changes, right? Where LinkedIn’s working, you kind of stand out and then two years later, it’s so competitive. So what is working now or how do you think about reinventing yourself? You know, maybe there’s a way to think about it that could work on any platform that starts to become crowded.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah. I mean, I am looking more at building my own kind of putting more into my website. I’ve put a lot of effort now into reading, that’s probably on the fourth iteration of my website. And I’ve had, I’ve got to give a note out to Dani Paige, who’s gave me a lot of help with that and gave me some amazing feedback. So my website now is looking better than it’s ever looked. And I am putting myself, it doesn’t sound like a lot, but I am making sure I put a blog on every month. And so I’m building, you know, it’s sometimes difficult, isn’t it? When you’ve got a lot of things, a lot of balls in the air to make that digital estate and make, you know, a place where people will come to all the time. Um, but trying to put one blog on a month, trying to reach out to people like, I mean, you know, business owners, people that are running podcasts and things like that, and speaking to people and saying, you know, here I am, what what can I give what value can I give to your business on a podcast or something like that I think that works as well as well I mean again it’s a competitive arena and it just takes some time to find people that want you to to actually go on but if you find the right fit that can work really well as well.

Rob Marsh: So, Wendy, one of the things that I know you’ve done, because you shared this with me, is this book that you’ve put together, this Workout. It’s a workbook, but a workout. Tell us about where that came from and how, like, what are the, not just the origin story, but how you would use it today.

Wendy Ann Jones: Okay. So, when I started out with copywriting courses, I’m from, an operations background. So I’ve always worked back office, that kind of thing. I’ve put together a lot of training, I’ve trained a lot of people, you know, my kind of role in enterprise before was work out how it works and then teach other people how to do it. And I think that why I’m suited to copywriting is because I’m super nosy and I have to understand all the nuts and bolts of everything so that I can get it clear in my head. So that works really well for me from a copywriting perspective. But when I was learning, I was looking for something that would give me a process to improve my copy. So I had lots of amazing courses, resources, obviously there’s thousands of youtube videos out there and things like that but then everyone says go away and practice and i was lucky i was in a course that had um editing included copy copy editing included as part of the course so that that’s amazing resource but what i was doing i was making up products So I would make like an example, I made up this product as a hit, right? What would I really love? And I don’t know if you’re gardeners, but I’m a gardener. And every time you buy a hose, a garden hose, and you plug it onto a tap, faucet, you plug that in and you turn it on and it always leaks, right? So that was the first thing I thought of. Wouldn’t it be great if you could have this thing that you plugged on and it didn’t leak? So I created this product for myself and I called it The Leakless, right? And I wrote a sales page and I got it edited and I did all this thing. And the editor was like, oh, that’s amazing. You always come up with these amazing products and stuff like that. And I thought, yeah, but I wonder if all copywriters do. Can all copywriters come up with this stuff? And even if they do, Is it industry relevant? Is it actually, is that pushing them to create something as they would need to if they were working with a client? Because when you’re working with a client, you, you have the information given to you. You can’t just make it up, right?

So I started to think this company I was working for, I was writing articles. They were business articles for companies that had won awards. So they’ve won the award for being the best, this, the best, that, whatever. And I would get an interview from them, like a questionnaire sheet, and I would have to write an article about it. So I thought, okay, after you’ve written 400 of these, you’re quite, quite well versed in, in what this looks like and the different kinds of companies that are out there that could potentially use a copywriter, right? So that was my idea for the book. And what I wanted to do is give people the bones of the identity of the company, but go further. Because when I had that questionnaire, sometimes it was really frustrating to just have that. So I wanted to give them something, the middle part. So I would write the middle part as if I’d kind of got the bones of an interview back from that client with the main points, and then give them the assignment to write the copy.

So that’s how I structured the book so that they can go, OK, this is a company. Here are the questions we’ve asked about them. What can they, about their offer, about the problems they solve for their customers, about the transformation their clients can expect, and that kind of thing. And then I can go away and I can practice a proper piece of copy that’s tangible, that then gives me a bit of confidence. Because what I saw with a lot of copywriters in training groups and Facebook groups and stuff like that is, How am I confident enough to know that I can go and approach a client, you know, and be credible? How do I know that I’ve gone through that process? You know, so being able to practice. Now, I didn’t want to step on the toes of guys such as yourself who are like, you know, super experienced in what you do. So you’ve got to train people and you can tell them and I in no way would put myself in that category. So what I wanted to do is create a supplementary resource for people that are going through the great courses that they can pick up all the stuff and then they can go away and practice. And then if they have an editing resource and they want to build a portfolio, they can get their stuff edited and they can put it in their portfolio and there it is. So that was the idea behind the book. So far, people seem to like it.

Rob Marsh: You’re being too kind to us, but can we get really granular? I know you’ve got the book in front of you. Can we look at a sample or example of what’s in the book and the kinds of questions, the description of the companies? Because as I went through it, I thought to myself, this actually is really useful in a lot of ways, as you said, as a launching pad for practicing what is very close to real world copy assignments. So yeah, give us an example of what’s there.

Wendy Ann Jones: Okay, so I’m literally flicking through And here’s one I found. This is number 11. And it’s freedom accounts. So what I’ve said about freedom accounts is basically I wanted to give people an idea what niche they could go in as well, because that’s a massive one, isn’t it? Everyone gets stuck on their niche. It’s like you need to pick a niche to get started. And you just get stuck on that ledge. You can’t get off it. So niches for freedom accounts would be small businesses. accountancy or finance. And then I give a bit of a background information about, to give a bit of personality. So I gave her a name. So it’s Sally that runs her accountancy firm. She wants to help her clients save money so the business can prosper. With her team, Sally takes the strain and hassle out of dealing with the numbers so her clients can concentrate on running their businesses. So I talk about that. And then I talk about the core offer. Um, so she’s offering bookkeeping and accountancy services, and they basically want to say that every customer is unique. Um, and that they tailor their services to fit every client, which obviously with a small business, that’s, you know, when they’re working with small businesses, that was what most people would want a list. What they’re doing. So bookkeeping, tax returns, payroll, budget turn. management accounts and VAT. And then I go into like a little interview, like a little mini interview. So their target market is small business owners, and entrepreneurs that don’t want to spend the hours that it takes them to do the books and who dread doing their taxes, which we know a lot of those, don’t we? So Then I just ask a few questions and I ask the same questions for every company throughout the book so that it’s just got, I’ve had a few people say, that’s really good because I didn’t know what questions to ask my clients. So now that’s given me a starting point, which is just a starting point, right? But you’ve got to start somewhere. So the problem that your product or service solves, so it takes away the pressure of having to understand and complete accounts on your own. The thing you love most about your business, we think fast, react fast and know that anything is achievable. We love finding new ways to help our clients, how they stand out from the competition. We’re flexible and tailor our services to fit the client and their financial goals. And the team is adaptable and they work with humor and positivity. So, and then of just put there a core message. Tell me if I’m talking too fast, by the way, because I do speed up.

Rob Marsh: I don’t think you’re talking too fast. Okay, cool, cool. So, yeah, this is good. So, I mean, I’ll just break in. Basically, you’ve got a page or two that’s company information so that you’re not starting from scratch as you’re doing this practice. You’re giving us, like you said, niche, ideal customer, the services that are there, and then there’s other stuff there too.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah, so I’ll talk about the tone or the brand image that they prefer. I mean, obviously, in real life, we know that sometimes we need to do a reality check with that but for practice it’s good to have an idea of what the client wants, the core messages that they want and obviously the call to action and then I’ve tried to put two or three options against each company and the section flex your copywriting muscles so once you’ve read all that You then go on to the bit where you actually have to do some work. So brainstorm some of the pain points your ideal end customer might have. So skimming the text and obviously thinking logically about that industry. You can also go onto the internet and research it if you want to. Summarize a client’s offer, which makes you obviously think about condensing it down rather than rambling on for pages and pages. and then list the benefits to the target audience. So that’s just like your little warm-up. And then for this one, I’ve chosen three types of copy. Write the pop-up wording for the opt-in on the website, write a landing page to ask readers for their email address, and write a sequence of three emails asking people on the list to sign up for the webinar that they mentioned. It’s kind of, some of them follow on, some of them are a little bit random. And then there’s a section at the back of the book that then suggests how they can kind of mix and match the different options. So really, if they want to, there’s hundreds and hundreds. I mean, if they need to practice that much, there’s plenty to go up, you know, and plenty of ideas to go forward.

Kira Hug: So what do you promise to copywriters or, you know, or aspiring writers If they work through the entire book, or maybe if they just work through three to five exercises, what is that shift for them that they can expect?

Wendy Ann Jones: I think the shift for them is confidence. I mean, I’ve called it a workout because I liken it to actually doing a physical workout. And we all know, you know, the first time you come to do a pushup, it’s horrendous, but if you keep doing it every day, you know, before, you know, you can do 10, you can do 20. Um, so it is a workout because it gets you flexing those muscles. I think that’s important, especially at the beginning, if you don’t have clients or, I’ve also had people say to me, oh, I write one type of copy. A lot of people start off writing blogs, but they’re not really sure about things like emails. They’d like to get into writing emails. So they’ve jumped in here and found the email section because they’ve got an index at the back where they can look up the different things and find places where they can practice the type of copy that they’re looking for. So I would say the main thing is confidence. it’s confidence to be able to go out and say, yeah, I can play here. I can play in this arena. I can give it my best shot. I’ve got some pieces of copy. I mean, I would always suggest that they go get some pieces, you know, edited by a professional editor, because that’s always a massive eye opener. And it was certainly super helpful to me at the beginning. And now, you know, you, when you go and get your, get your paid work edited and everything, it’s always great to have that second pair of eyes and somebody that, you know, comes at it from a different angle and stuff like that. So you get that input as well, because without having pieces of work, you’ve got nothing to get edited. Right. So some people can’t get off that ledge and just having, having a few pieces of copy where you can say, okay, right, well, I really, I really think this one’s quite good. put that in, get it edited, you know, you might have to pay for it, but it’s not that much, you know, as long as you’re not writing, you know, 45 pages of copy, it’s not that much money to get that, that input back. And it will really take your copy to the next level. So yeah, it’s just, it’s confidence building and it is having pieces of work that you can show prospective clients as well, because you know, that really shows up to, your talent and what you can do, because I’m sure most people go into copywriting because they love writing. So they’re all good writers anyway, they just need to prove it to themselves, right?

Rob Marsh: Maybe not all, maybe not all, but yeah, they’re They’re definitely a lot of us. So one of the things that I’ve noticed with beginning copywriters is obviously you need this work in order to show samples in a lot of cases when clients ask for samples or if you want to put something on your website. And the projects that they choose are often rewrites of existing copy and they don’t change it all that much because they simply don’t have the experience or they’ll choose something and they’ll mimic a style that, you know, is like hardcore direct response or something. And it just comes off not feeling right. And the thing that I really like about this tool is that these are they’re not real companies, but they’re very similar to very real companies that you would be asked to write about as a general copywriter. And because because you’re giving that typical background information and you’re not showing another copywriter’s work saying, hey, here’s something that they wrote and here’s the existing headline, you don’t start out biased by where they are. And so you do have to go through that creative process and work through it. So that’s one thing that when you showed me the workbook, I was like, oh, this is really useful. And then I think you’re hitting on now the second part, which is once you’ve got that written, getting feedback, not just from an editor, but from a talented copywriter. And there are lots of ways to do that. Yeah, there are. I mean, you compare with a copywriter that, you know, is maybe a year ahead or two years ahead of you. There are groups where this is possible. And, you know, I’ll just throw out our Copywriter Underground. We offer free critiques to to anybody writing any copy, whether it’s spec or real or whatever. So that feedback mechanism, I think, is the next piece to really start taking your copy to another level. So that’s not really a question, but just kind of wrapping up you know some of your thoughts as to why you created this I hope.

Wendy Ann Jones: Oh that’s amazing I love that yeah and that is a good point as well because if you are in those type of groups that are really supportive and everything like that you know I mean people that aren’t in any paid groups I think it probably is a a little bit of a leap of faith to post your copy into some of the free groups or whatever I mean choose your group wisely is all I can say for that you know I mean I know you guys operate a free group which is really good um but obviously you’ve got your paid you’ve got your paid offering as well haven’t you membership and everything and I think you know one of the one of the drums that I do bang is is try to try to get on a credible copy course as much as you can I mean obviously not everyone has a budget for every course but there are courses you know good courses at different levels and stuff so try to get on that course um because it will give you that that grounding rather than just battling your way through loads of free youtube videos which i mean bless the people that have managed to do it but that has got to be hard work without the structure there and the and the support from the group right

Kira Hug: Yeah, for sure. And I want to just talk a little bit more about your early story and go back to how you got into all of this. I think you mentioned that you were happy in the company, but then it took a turn. So I’m curious, what did that look like? If a company takes a turn, how do you know, OK, this isn’t going to get better? I need to jump. And, and then what was the mindset that you had or had to develop in order to make a leap in your career?

Wendy Ann Jones: Okay, yes, interesting, interesting question. So I’ll roll about further than that. So, crikey, 14 years ago, I was living in France. So I was living in France. I split up from my husband and I needed to do something and go somewhere. And I chose to come back to England and I was a single mom and I needed to find a job. And I was lucky because my mom was around and mom could help me with childcare and stuff like that. So I kind of looked around for a couple of jobs and I fell into technology. communications technology, and literally had no clue. You know, they were talking a foreign language to me, you know, everything was abbreviations, everything was like, like, I have no idea what’s going on here. But for some reason, well, I know what it was, I spoke French, and they had some French customers, and they’re like, help, we need someone to help us. And so life goes on doesn’t it and you end up in a place just by chance and I was there 12 years and I moved through the company doing different roles and everything and it was exciting it was you know I was always learning something they were always oh maybe she can do this maybe she can teach people how to do that and it was very very exciting but then the investment went out of the section that we were in And we got, I don’t know if this exists in America, but we got 2P transferred to another company.

So they transferred us to a smaller company and there was no investment and no, no one was interested in moving it forward anymore. And for me, if it’s not moving forward, just the heart of it wasn’t there anymore. Everybody was bored, disillusioned. When you’re working with people, they’re bored and disillusioned every day. That is not good for your mental health, you know, especially you’re going into perimenopause anyway, which is like, what’s happening to my life? And then had this every day. And I was thinking, no, there has to be more to life than this. But of course, you’re looking for the security at the same time. being a single mom, you’re kind of hanging on to it saying it’s secure, I’ve got a paycheck every month. But then my daughter went to university. And I thought, now, I don’t have any excuses anymore. I’m just getting sadder every day. And so I did. A friend of mine is a psychotherapist. And in COVID, he did like, like an online course about mental health and I learned so much. I learned so much about the whole mindset game and things like that and just got fascinated with the whole personal development thing and everything. And then about a month later, this copywriting course jumped up in front of my face and I was like, yes, this is the solution. I shall do this.

Rob Marsh: And it just worked out.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah and it was that simple which is crazy and you think you were thinking for like four or five years oh this is dreadful this is terrible and yeah within a month i was like yeah this is better i can do this I’m working towards something now.

Rob Marsh: Can you give us like your one or two top takeaways from that webinar that your friend did that really helped shift your beliefs around your mindset and being able to move forward in something that’s very new and maybe feels kind of risky?

Wendy Ann Jones: I did read an amazing book that was part of the curriculum on there. And it is called a lot of people know this book already, because it’s quite famous, but it’s called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, by Susan Jeffers. And it’s all about yes, you will feel scared. Yes. It is normal. Yes, you will survive. You can do it anyway, you know, and it’s all about that. And the other part is really that you believe what you want to believe, that it’s you that’s in charge of your mind and it’s you that’s in charge of your destiny. So it’s no one else’s fault. It’s no one else’s to blame. You’re not the victim of your own story or the hero of your own story. And it is about taking back control and making your own decisions. And I would say wholeheartedly to anybody that’s like thinking, I’m going to be an entrepreneur. I’m going to have my own business. Don’t neglect the mindset part because we do it at the beginning. And we go, oh yeah, the mindset part’s really important. And then we get in all the day to day and all the business stuff and the accounts and the everything and then, and we forget. about the mindset part and then it gets really busy or really not busy or whatever and that’s when all those nagging little doubts start coming in your head or what have you done why have you done this aren’t you silly whereas if you’re doing your mindset work and you’re doing your mindset work regularly and you’re checking in regularly with yourself then you’re able to cope with that so don’t neglect the mindset work take a good course, buy a good book. I like the Jen Sincero books about how to be a badass, they’re good as well. I’ve got that on an audiobook, listening to it in the car, so you don’t even have to sit down and read it every day, you can play it when you’re going in the car to pick kids up or whatever. And there’s another great book which is called The Slight Edge that’s I’m sure everybody’s heard of, but

Rob Marsh: I love, I love that book. It’s a fantastic book.

Wendy Ann Jones: It’s just a life saving book that as soon as you start to feel a little bit like you’re coming off the rails, just read it again. Cause it’s so small. You can read it in a couple of days, can’t you? And, uh, yeah, just build those tiny little habits every day of, which copyright and practice is one of them, right? You know, if you’re not, if you’re not writing copy paid copy every day, Practice your copy, write a few headlines, write something, do a post with a call to action, do something each day and build the skills.

Kira Hug: That’s great advice. And I have not read The Slight Edge yet, but I’ve been told many times to read it. So I’m just adding that note. I’m curious about perimenopause, you know, you mentioned a couple of times and just what that experience is like. I think it’s something that isn’t talked about enough, probably, especially to prepare younger women for what they’re stepping into. And so I’m curious, you know, how that connected to your career decisions and what that experience was like for you.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah. I mean, it is different for everybody. so i’ve got to say that right there because everyone will get different symptoms everyone will it will happen to everyone at different time as well you know some people can come into it super early some people don’t hit it until you know later on in their 50s or whatever but yeah if you’re kind of i don’t know mid 40s onwards and you start asking yourself if you’re going mental I never used to do that or I never used to behave like that or I never used to think that, you know, or whatever. I mean, of course, you’ve got the, you’ve got physical symptoms as well, which are fairly well documented, you know, like hot flashes and stuff like that. It’s the mental part of it, really. You know, people say baby brain is a thing. Sorry about this, Rob. You’re probably like thinking, oh, we’ve got into the women’s conversation here.

Rob Marsh: I probably don’t have a lot of questions to ask here, but let me just say, I’ve kind of lived through this, so I’m fine having this discussion.

Kira Hug: Awesome. Awesome.

Wendy Ann Jones: Love that. Yeah. So baby brain, everyone thinks, oh, baby brain, you know, it’s terrible. You lose half your brain when you’re pregnant and all the rest of it. It’s nothing compared to perimenopause. Great. Literally. So you know, I mean, when you when you’re pregnant, and you start crying, for no reason, and then you think, Oh, when I’m not pregnant anymore, I’ll stop doing that. But you never do, right? You always keep crying at the drop of a hat, anything, you know, like, can be an advert for tissues, and you just say, perimenopause, I multiply that by 10. that you’re just crying even more. You get sad. The thing I got, I got this like black fog thing, like where I couldn’t get out of it. And it was like, there was a black fog coming around my eyes and stuff. And I was like, what is going on here? And that was what prompted me to join John’s course because I just kind of woke up one morning and I thought, I can’t do this anymore. I don’t recognize myself. because I’ve always been quite a calm person. I’m not going to ask my partner. I’d probably like to say, no, you’re not. Um, but yeah, I’ve always thought of myself as quite a calm person, somebody that can kind of sit back from a situation and that kind of thing. But when those hormones start jumping about and everything, you, yeah, it’s a bit of a shock to be honest. So if you feel it, take action, go speak to somebody because he can, you can make it better. just by talking to people, doing the work. I mean, obviously there is medical help, hormonal help and stuff like that as well. But just to get through those initial times, I would say, yeah, go talk to somebody and get on some sort of course where you can have those conversations because yeah, it’s been, I mean, not just for perimenopause, but for me, but all the way across the board, it’s been absolutely life-changing to start that personal development journey. I mean, so late in life, but you know, if you get there, eventually you get there, don’t you?

Kira Hug: Yeah. And just one more follow up and then we can move on to something else. But what do you think is, I mean, it sounds challenging in many ways. So, but what is, do you think is the opportunity, um, for us going through that, you know, is you made a big career decision through it. So I think that almost sounds like a silver lining to do, to experience other opportunities or advantages because of that experience.

Wendy Ann Jones: I mean, I think definitely just getting older in general, the, the opportunities are better because you, you care less. You care less about what other people think of you. You care less about people judging you. You care less about all that. So, and when you’re going through something, you’re going through that time in your life, you build so much resilience. And we’re talking a lot about resilience at the moment, aren’t we? You know, in mental health space and everything like that. But you are building resilience coming through challenges like that. Any challenges that people come through, you are building resilience every day. And it helps you to certainly help me to take a step back and look at things and ask myself questions that I probably would never have asked myself before. you know, I’d have probably just guided through and just kept going on the, you know, on that track or keep doing it, rather than saying, well, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? What am I hoping to get out of it? Do I think that this is the best thing for me? Could I be doing something different? Could I be doing something more fulfilling? Could I make it better? What is it I really want? You know, sitting down and doing that work and say, you know, a lot of it came out for me that I had an ambition to help people that was, I’d lost really in this like corporate little corner that I’d been shoved into. I really wanted to help people. I really wanted to leave some sort of legacy to say that, you know, this is what I’ve done with my life and everything like that. And that came out more, more than a financial goal that was more important to me. So sitting down and doing that work because of going through these things and having these symptoms, it’s absolutely been invaluable really to identify what you actually truly want deep down.

Rob Marsh: So Wendy, you’ve been into this process now for two years, building your own business, maybe a little bit longer than two years. Recently, we’ve been hearing a lot of people say, you know, this is a terrible time to get into copywriting, which I don’t agree with necessarily, although there are definitely some headwinds. So tell us, if you had to start over as a copywriter, what would you do in order to make the progress that you’ve made over the last couple of years? And obviously you felt some of those headwinds, so maybe that’s also a way to transition to what are you doing today to make sure you’re staying ahead of it.

Wendy Ann Jones: Okay.

Rob Marsh: Sorry, kind of throwing two questions at you at the same time.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah. So what would I do if I was starting today? Whoo, crikey. That’s tough, isn’t it? It’s tough to start today. I feel like it’s tough.

Rob Marsh: I feel like it was kind of two years ago. Right?

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah, it’s kind of tough anytime. I mean, I do see that what you guys are doing with the AI, and that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, it’s not necessarily embracing it, but it it’s having it as some kind of bedfellow, right? That you you understand it. I think like it or lump it, we’re in a situation now with technology that we need to at least understand how it works, at least be able to maneuver. I think I was listening to a podcast that you were talking about earlier saying, you know, maybe there are roles for copywriters with helping people with AI and things like that. So it is maybe, looking outside the box I mean I don’t like those jobs where you see oh I need a freelance copywriter and they’re like oh yeah and we want you to be able to do you know this and that and you like you basically want me to run the whole company you know there’s so many things it’s not just writing you know I want to pay you 10 pounds a week but there are certain you know there is a certain amount of um flexing I think that you need to do now so the strategy piece I think is huge I think I’ve heard that so many times recently as being more of a strategist and understanding all the components how it built bolts together how it can work with the technology and that kind of thing I think that’s probably an area it’s a lot isn’t it if you if you’re trying to learn to to write the copy but you’re also trying to learn all this other stuff it is a little bit like a mountain to climb so I’d be I’d be interested on your take really because you guys are more the experts than me but um when it comes to where do you start I mean you need to know how to write and you need to know the components of that so that is a place to start can we still pitch ourselves just to write I’m not sure

Kira Hug: I’m not sure. I think it’s becoming harder. But I mean, the opportunity I see with AI is you could take something like your amazing workbook that you’ve created as this incredible resource and work through those exercises if you are a new copywriter. And the cool thing is you can then take your output, what you wrote, and drop it into just about any AI tool to get a critique. So you don’t even, I mean, it’s in some ways, right? It’s many ways taking jobs from other writers who do that for a living. There’s still a huge benefit to working with those writers and joining the memberships like our own. But when you can’t afford that, there are these incredible AI tools that can serve you. So I mean, that’s the upside is you can learn faster than you could 10 years ago. You have access to every copywriting resource that’s ever been published on the internet. And so I think learning has to happen faster. Now, if you’re new, you don’t have the same window of time to just kind of leisurely, like, figure it out, like I had, just like putter through it. It’s more like, okay, you got to learn, you got to learn fast, if you’re serious about doing this, but you can now because you have access to everything.

Wendy Ann Jones: That’s cool.

Kira Hug: So let’s talk a little bit about your struggles, because I feel like we’ve talked a lot about you’re doing so many things well. I mean, again, you’ve created this incredible resource. You are building this business. You have this incredible mindset. So at this stage, what is hard? Outside of what we’ve talked about a little bit, like LinkedIn is more crowded. There is more competition. That’s been challenging. But what other struggles show up at this stage in your business?

Wendy Ann Jones: The biggest struggle really is find it is finding the clients that you want i think and um yeah i think that is this that is the struggle now um i am starting to look more in my local area than look in looking online just because i’m kind of feeling the swamp of people that are kind of desperately looking for work everywhere, whereas I’ve had interesting conversations in local networking groups where people have run up to me saying, can I have your business card? And I’m like, oh, this is an interesting development, you know, rather than being the, you are the hundredth applicant or whatever it is after the job’s been up for 10 minutes kind of thing. So that’s kind of what I’ve been looking at at the moment in terms of trying to find clients. Struggles wise, I guess time and understanding how to compartmentalize your time is, is a challenge. is a challenge because you end up with an endless list of things. So you’re like, okay, so I need to practice this and I need to learn this and I need to create this and I need to speak to these people and I need to, you know, and it goes on and on and on and on. And I think sometimes the temptation to end up just in that shock paralysis where you do nothing. Because you’re like, I have so much to do. And you’re just like, I’m just gonna do nothing.

Wendy Ann Jones: I mean, that is being brutally honest. I’m not sure how many other people have that.

Rob Marsh: But I think it’s pretty widespread. There are a lot of struggle or, or, you know, have many good options to choose from working on your own business. And because there are so many opportunities, we sort of struggle to make the choice on which one to work on now.

Wendy Ann Jones: Yeah, yeah, it is, isn’t it? It’s like you spread so thin, you’re like, I could do this, or I could do this, or I could do this. And then you just like, I don’t know which one’s the best one. So I think, you know, like the support groups and the mentorship, and that kind of thing really does come into its own at that point, because if you were just on your own, you might just be stood turning around in the corner for a week and not knowing what to do. So reaching out to the people that are in your network, you know, whether it’s the copywriters or, you know, people in groups and stuff like that, that is invaluable. And I think having those touch points, you know, if you’ve got an accountability partner or somebody like that, that you can chat with that works really well as well. I have a couple of those that I touch base with fairly regularly just to keep each other safe.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, for sure. So Wendy, you’ve got the workbook. We’ve talked about the networking that you’re starting to do locally. What else is going on in your business, or what’s next for you in the coming year?

Wendy Ann Jones: OK. So I have had someone say to me that it was a copywriting coach that reviewed my book that he is it in the business to business area and he said I you know I really like your book and I really see the value in it but could we have more b2b stuff so that’s something that’s rolling around in my head at the moment um of how to maybe make a little extra a little extra sequel or something to that. I need to find the time to do it. So that’s one thing that’s rolling around. I have a longer waited email list that I have to start working on communicating with. People join my thing and they just sit there at the moment, so we’ll actually get around to that. I’m also writing a novel that’s on my back burner. It’s not on my back burner, it’s on the front burner, but it sometimes gets worked on and sometimes gets neglected, because that was one of my initial things I wanted to do. My plan was, I’m going to be a really great copywriter and then I’ll write a novel. And then I thought, Why am I doing it like this? Why can’t I just write a novel at the same time as being a copywriter? And so I’m doing that. I think I’m about three quarters of the right way through that at the moment.

Kira Hug: So yeah, what’s going on? What’s your novel about?

Wendy Ann Jones: It is about a character’s journey, um, in their life basically from kind of the age of 14 up to whenever I decide to stop it um there’s a little bit of there’s a little bit of biography style stuff in there there’s a lot of experiences people I’ve met and things that I’ve drawn on throughout my life um I’ve traveled a lot when I was younger um so it’s kind of based around that a little bit but amazing fictional

Kira Hug: Well, let’s just wrap with like one tip for anyone who’s writing their own book right now based off your experience. What advice would you give a fellow or aspiring writer? Okay, to write your own book.

Wendy Ann Jones: I would write your outline, just blurb it down like we say the shirt draft or whatever. Just blurb your outline down or your idea down. Don’t edit it. Don’t think about it. Just get that on paper and then set yourself a time aside to write either each day, each week, whatever that looks like for you that you can realistically do and put it in your diary and stick to it. Turn your phone off and do your writing.

Rob Marsh: It’s good advice, yeah, if you’ve got the discipline to do it. So, Wendy, if somebody wants to get a hold of the workout, the Copywriter’s Workout, or join your list that’s not getting emailed to yet, but will be later this year, or just wants to check out what you’re up to, where should they go? How can they find you?

Wendy Ann Jones: They can find me at www.wendyannjones.com. I’m also on LinkedIn as Wendy Ann Jones Copywriter UK. I’m on Facebook, Instagram, whatever. And The Copywriter’s Workout is available as a paperback or PDF via Amazon.

Kira Hug: Amazing. Thank you so much, Wendy. We appreciate it.

Wendy Ann Jones: Thank you.

Rob Marsh: Thanks again to Wendy Ann Jones for joining us to chat about her business and writing practice, as well as other things. As I like to, I just want to add a comment or two about what we talked about, specifically about practice.

You should be writing every single day. If you’re a writer, that’s what you do—you write every day, not just morning pages or a few paragraphs on 750 words. You need to be writing for clients. You need to be writing for yourself. And if you don’t have that opportunity right now, the resource that Wendy shared called The Copywriter’s Workout, which we’ve linked to in the show notes for this episode, might just be the right resource for you. So be sure to check that out. But more important than that resource is just making the time to write. Write as if you’re solving business problems, copy problems for your clients, getting in the reps, getting in the practice. That’s what makes you a better writer.

And then as we mentioned, the next step after doing the practice is getting feedback on what you write. That’s a big part of what we do at The Copywriter Underground. I mentioned that earlier in our interview, but I just want to follow up. We do a weekly copy critique where members can share whatever it is that they’ve written either for themselves or for their clients, sometimes even things that they’ve been asked to rewrite and they’re just looking for different approaches or ideas that we might be able to suggest, and getting that feedback. It is immensely helpful. Everybody who submits tells us afterwards they really appreciate the additional perspectives, the additional ideas that we’re able to share, and as we’re able to push them to think either bigger or differently about the things that they’re writing about. Hopefully, in an effort to help the copywriters in The Copywriter Underground improve their writing and become so much better at what they do.

Now, most copy critiques, if you hire a copy coach, are going to cost you hundreds of dollars, sometimes even thousands of dollars. We know several copy coaches who charge more than a thousand dollars for an hour of their time in order to go through a sales page or a website and offer you their thoughts. The Copywriter Underground is less than 10% of that. It is such a phenomenal deal. you’ll want to check that out at thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu. And the copy critiques are just a small part of what’s included in everything you get there.

Finally, I just want to mention this idea of resilience that Wendy was talking about towards the end of the interview. So much of what we do as copywriters as content writers on a day-to-day basis requires resilience, whether that’s pitching clients and hear them say no or not right now and then being willing to pitch the very next client knowing that they may also say no and then the next and the next and the next. It takes resilience, or maybe it’s not finding clients for you, but writing every day or sending an email to your list every week or every day. These things take resilience. Running a business takes resilience. And so whatever you can do to stretch that muscle, to build that resilience into your personal makeup, into the way that you approach your days, is something worth considering. There are definitely some books out there that are really good. Maybe we can link to some of those in the show notes as well.

I want to thank Wendy again for joining us to share so much about her business and her book with dozens of practice examples. You can find The Copywriter’s Workout on Amazon or wherever books are sold online. You can also find it on Wendy’s website. We’ve linked to the book in the show notes. on our website to help you find it very easily. So you can go there and just click there. It’s super cheap and well worth the practice research or practice resource, excuse me. And you can connect directly with Wendy at wendyannjones.com.

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner.

If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts to leave a review and let us know what you’d like. Better still, share this episode with another copywriter who you know will be able to learn something from it. Just send them a link to the show and maybe a quick note that just says, Hey, I like this and thought you might enjoy it too. They’ll appreciate it, and that makes you look great for sharing a really helpful resource with the copywriters that you know.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.